For my sanity will summarize yet another exchange with an “informed” Leaver which depressingly went the way it always seems to.
@Sempersum, the leaver in question, injected himself (going to assume he as he/she has now blocked me) by rubbishing this Independent article which details 7 lies from Leave, by saying they weren’t lies, the article was out of date and Remainers were clutching at straws.
So, being a pedant I thought I would tackle him on a few points.
By the way I know these conversations can appear a bit pedantic, but a) its hard to debate on Twitter and b) the easiest thing someone can do when they cannot prove their position is to move the debate to safer ground, “What about all the remain lies”. However, what I’m trying to do is get people to prove their statements, or recognize that they can’t. And who knows who else is following the conversation?
So you’ll see several occasions where @Sempersum tried to drag me off into other areas and me doggedly saying “no ‘squirrels!’ please, lets focus on one point at a time“
“1. Brexit would mean £350m extra per week for the NHS”
My position was – yes this is an absolute lie based on this opening comment:
@Sempersum’s position was, well, it wasn’t a lie and he also opened by saying my arguments were flawed and I was “blinkered and ill informed” (charming) .
Me: We don’t send £350 M
@S: We do
Me: No, the rebate is never sent
@S: what about our escalating EU contributions, they are going up (Links EU contribution graph from last 15 years)
Me: I don’t actually care. It’s a fraction of our budget and benefits o/w cost. But let’s address point 1) please. No squirrels (i.e. please don’t try and redirect discussion)
@S: anyway it IS sent and then repaid.
Me: it is called the Fontainebleau deferment and is not actually a rebate. It is never sent to the EU nor repaid
@S: The Net effect is £350 M, anyway its just hyperbole, and fair game as a figure for a campaign
Me: the net effect is £350 is not available, was never available, cannot be available and is not fair game
@S: your figures are wrong, check your facts
Me:look a squirrel. Not material to argument
@S: we still send the rebate
Me: OK please supply link showing rebate is sent.
@S: (Link supplied)
Me: (quote from supplied link) “UK’s GNI-based contribution in the following year is reduced by that amount.” The rebate is not sent. Contribution reduced (ie, no, the supplied link shows the rebate is not sent)
Me: so it’s not sent? You accept that?
@S: do you accept its ringfenced?
Me: no, no – sorry – the line is “we send £350 m” not “we sent “£180 and ring fence £70”. Do you accept it’s not sent? (not getting dragged down is/is not ringfenced yet)
@S: your figures are wrong
Me: Yes, you said, I’ll use any figures you are comfortable with
@S…What about all the remain lies? I’ve answered your questions on the £350M
Me: no, you haven’t. I will answer any question you want for as long as you want, but let’s address the £350 m first
@S…Do you really think the bus made any difference? Leave were always ahead
Me: will cover any point you wish to make, but cannot on Twitter cover 5 at once.
@S: I wont continue until you talk about impact of bus on result
Me: fine. A lot. I’ve seen videos of campaigners. Good people who believed they were saving the NHS. Who thought 350 was available
(some discussion on impact of Bus on result)
Me: to be fair now you are moving the goalposts “it wasn’t a lie” to “it didn’t matter”
@S: No, it wasn’t a lie AND it didn’t matter
Finally, tried to pin @S down on at least one point
@S: so we can agree the bus wasn’t a lie?
Me: not at all. They said send. We don’t send. It’s a lie. Do you have link showing ringfencing of rebate?
@S: I sent you a link
Me: yes. Where does it say the rebate is ringfenced?
@S: Its in there, it says we pay it then get it back (it doesn’t actually)
Me: I covered this an hour ago. Last year’s refund pays this year’s
@S’s logic here was we pay say £18B, then get back our rebate of £6B say next year. Therefore, we need to “ringfence” the £6B until we get it back. But we don’t, because when we pay the £18B this year we take LAST year’s £6B off first. I suppose we were “out of pocket” the first year we got the rebate but not since then, the previous year’s rebate is taken off before we send this year’s money and so on. This seemed to escape him. When pressed, as expected, he started to get mock indignant.
@S: its ring fenced
Me: OK show me the link and the proof
@S: go look for it yourself
Me: Honestly, I’ve tried, I can’t find it
@S: I’m not hand holding you
Me: just show me the link saying its ring fenced and the quote. Otherwise, its not sent, its not ringfenced, there is not and never was £350 M and the Bus WAS a lie.
@S: I don’t want to
Look lets just be honest, its not sent or ringfenced in any meaningful way, and I havent even covered returned EU funding. You know it, I know it, and when asked to prove the ringfencing you called time. Fair enough. But the bus is a lie, sorry
@S: You’re rude – you’re insulting me
Me: You called me ill informed and blinkered in your 2nd tweet (pastes tweet)
@S: I’m blocking you
So, conversation ended just like this one with bluster “Its not a lie”, dismissal “you are blinkered and ill informed”, tortured logic “The money is sent/the money is ringfenced/£100 – £50 = £100”, misdirection “what about remain lies?”, “but the bus didn’t matter anyway”, mock indignation “Its really obvious but you are too stupid to see it” and finally a strop “I’m bored, you’re rude, I’m blocking you”